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Grateful Dead 05/26/77
Baltimore Civic Center, Baltimore, MD
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Source # 11614
Entered by dr.unclear
Checksums shn-md5 , st5
Disc Counts 2 / 3
Media Size
Date Circulated
Date Added		 08/26/02
08/25/2002
Download Text | Download Zip

Other Sources
Source Summary
SBD > 7" RTR half-track recording @ 7.5 i.p.s. 1/2 track > Marin County Mixdown ADAT > SSSB; Seeded to etree by Jay Serafin
Grateful Dead
05/26/77 Sets I / II
Baltimore Civic Center   Baltimore, MD

LINEAGE (SET I/II):
SBD > 7" RTR half-track recording @ 7.5 i.p.s. 1/2 track > Marin County Mixdown ADAT > SSSB

All editing & processing performed at 24-bit/96 kHz (100% digital realm) by:
Jay Serafin, chief audio/video engineer at Serafin Station Studio B, using
the (code name) "Harpoon" editing software (beta Ver. 0.948.7 Build 103)


Disc 1
SET I
gd77-05-26d1t01  08:05.823  The Music Never Stopped
gd77-05-26d1t02  15:11.016  Sugaree
gd77-05-26d1t03  04:21.144  Mama Tried
gd77-05-26d1t04  03:59.782  Sunrise
gd77-05-26d1t05  05:35.775  Deal
gd77-05-26d1t06  03:56.857  Passenger
gd77-05-26d1t07  05:44.046  Brown-Eyed Women
gd77-05-26d1t08  09:16.845  Looks Like Rain
gd77-05-26d1t09  06:15.707  Jack A Roe
gd77-05-26d1t10  05:21.450  Minglewood Blues  
Total time: 1:07:48.445


Disc 2
SET I cont'd
gd77-05-26d2t01  07:42.299  Bertha

SET II
gd77-05-26d2t02  08:28.691  Samson & Delilah
gd77-05-26d2t03  08:05.775  High Time
gd77-05-26d2t04  06:51.044  Big River
gd77-05-26d2t05  10:27.213  Terrapin Station ->
gd77-05-26d2t06  08:36.229  -> Estimated Prophet
gd77-05-26d2t07  12:26.694  -> Eyes Of The World ->
Total time: 0:54:55.646


Disc 3
SET II CONT'D
gd77-05-26d3t01  16:46.510  -> Not Fade Away ->
gd77-05-26d3t02  08:21.208  -> Goin' Down The Road Feelin' Bad ->
gd77-05-26d3t03  08:08.556  -> Around & Around
gd77-05-26d3t04  08:06.796  ENCORE: Uncle John's Band
Total time: 0:40:51.070
Show Checksums
shn-md5
60d86c0802944f5ce4079eba23838acc *gd77-05-26d1t01.shn
54500bcc7553612eeda782de1070ce0e *gd77-05-26d1t02.shn
3b0b2daaab1c0ef3f7b97edc2b7c3e74 *gd77-05-26d1t03.shn
1a2fb58ab110ef09dfbf86120a164230 *gd77-05-26d1t04.shn
7db470c2e3cad4e29056f2f0761895da *gd77-05-26d1t05.shn
b9550ab33aa1a5314936f90e9ef21d4b *gd77-05-26d1t06.shn
c530aece2228f8b0fbaf873a5e21276b *gd77-05-26d1t07.shn
046eea369a174930c5ee9c8504a73d7f *gd77-05-26d1t08.shn
b7825d3da5c5a58e63f12c40ab62f3a9 *gd77-05-26d1t09.shn
617dfb702f53b38eac21c97f150de6ae *gd77-05-26d1t10.shn
192b9b93f365f358fcc3179dbd23793c *gd77-05-26d2t01.shn
5895217b1e1018ea0b4d4c2cd3f756f9 *gd77-05-26d2t02.shn
d538083b1a24f580ff2182305585e7ca *gd77-05-26d2t03.shn
55c8e57473b7364cbaa379692f31c41b *gd77-05-26d2t04.shn
225bf060a44758a30891384aed7f6389 *gd77-05-26d2t05.shn
b5d33c73f2b53c8fe803ee1ef55bdc7a *gd77-05-26d2t06.shn
e4070dfefa43b1d4937ef1ffcda593f4 *gd77-05-26d2t07.shn
c57b3e2fff72726abd1a184bb96e2cda *gd77-05-26d3t01.shn
4df39080ca03ef6566ac7e555ea4add7 *gd77-05-26d3t02.shn
6804e0bd94dc756012600db2676f6be9 *gd77-05-26d3t03.shn
0b13d249735bec4005f6ad64132a9898 *gd77-05-26d3t04.shn
st5
209d607f9f770f13800bf95f8096ac91 [shntool] gd77-05-26d1t01.shn
76163c4727de43e84a4621d1b14a9792 [shntool] gd77-05-26d1t02.shn
23007aaf3d7c0bc413e50faa91b55bcb [shntool] gd77-05-26d1t03.shn
8c8ba91c71263e55524efa60005e40e7 [shntool] gd77-05-26d1t04.shn
d64e2cc4bf823809884aab90da9658d9 [shntool] gd77-05-26d1t05.shn
73c8ef05a0fcdc69cc84c5c66eeda861 [shntool] gd77-05-26d1t06.shn
4fbec86762967004db82d9e5ccd59e02 [shntool] gd77-05-26d1t07.shn
d9567a04f7900f323b3b2503ea1b5b04 [shntool] gd77-05-26d1t08.shn
bf55893e6a575b7e4e02c82c63d5460d [shntool] gd77-05-26d1t09.shn
ce3d87aab261c10010686bb75c9d9cb8 [shntool] gd77-05-26d1t10.shn
c143ae19fe759a369762bcd20dd7f18c [shntool] gd77-05-26d2t01.shn
5aa05cc6c476891634fc9d6b05342272 [shntool] gd77-05-26d2t02.shn
ca8fbb154a23ffa6d17dfeedef03ee09 [shntool] gd77-05-26d2t03.shn
8f31d1a93074d659a6e0a019d83bb794 [shntool] gd77-05-26d2t04.shn
acf459ae8856007561184114cccac34b [shntool] gd77-05-26d2t05.shn
1dbccbe11c70d34c7870df36d56a6230 [shntool] gd77-05-26d2t06.shn
c6896a723b3e54c39e9b9593db955c69 [shntool] gd77-05-26d2t07.shn
267ce734feaa4559b4288b1261b9d9af [shntool] gd77-05-26d3t01.shn
5bf75fb9d545a1fb39a297c828706cf5 [shntool] gd77-05-26d3t02.shn
29661bc3e45cad02e8fe9b056fad9061 [shntool] gd77-05-26d3t03.shn
62ff9c9868c20273cdd7b45bd71a6673 [shntool] gd77-05-26d3t04.shn

Comments
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Other Sources (comments)
Soundboard > 7 inch Master... (3) AUD>MC>DAT>CDR via Raoul... (0) SBD>>MR>>DAT>>SHN>>DAW(Bert... (0) AUD>MC>DAT>CDR>EAC>WAV>DC6>... (0) SBD>MSR>DAT>SS>CD>EAC>WAV>D... (0) flac 16 ; Sick Bits Vol.... (0)
Date User Comment
09/07/2002 Joe Samaritano What soundboard source was used to patch the reel splices in Estimated & Around?
09/09/2002 I sure wish the code name "harpoon" editing software could cut tracks on proper sector boundaries....
09/09/2002 shnaholic this isnt the first time ive seen jays seeds slammed for not being cut on sector boundaries...jeez dude youd think a chief engineer at his own studio would use a simple prog like cd wave editor which does cut on sector boundaries and also operates in the "100 percent digital realm" if other people can do it correctly, why can't this guy?
09/09/2002 thanks for speaking up! last time I tried to say that on here my comments mysteriously disappeared. Warn everyone far and wide!
09/10/2002 z well, someone could nicely tell jay about the problem... not everyone is perfect!!
09/10/2002 shnaholic jay has been told several times. why he doesnt respond to emails or start doing it the right way is beyond me. i have yet to recieve any emails from him answering that simple question. maybe his email filters are too strict.
09/10/2002 darrin has anybody compared the sound of this source to the other source that previously circulated? (see, http://db.etree.org/shninfo_detail.php?shnid=3224).


It would seem to me that if this source sounds better, it should be shntooled and re-circulated in "correct" form. If the other source sounds better, it should be spread again instead of this one.
09/10/2002 Jack Warner Can someone more knowledgeable than I am explain how or why you "mix down" a two-track source tape to multi-track ADAT?
09/10/2002 Deadhead Jack: LOL, excellent point!



Joe: There is a David Gans sourced version (I think he played it on one of the KPFA marathons, then seeded a tree)of this show in which he patched the reel cuts with segments of other May 77 shows. I am not aware of any alternate sbd source for this show so this may well be a remaster of Gans' remaster...
09/10/2002 RMS I believe that Jay has been informed of the problem by his "Marin County Source" but does not feel that splitting tracks on sector boundaries is necessary. Keep in mind, however, that all editing is done in the "100% digital realm" at a state of the art audio workstation code named "SSSSSSSSB". Apparently, though, none of those "SB"'s signifies "sector boundary"'s. Ah well...
09/10/2002 Willy I don't want to comment on Jay's refusal to cut tracks properly, or the fact that you need a compression scheme to ftp his txt files, BUT will anyone actually burn this show with Bertha at the start of disc two? Hello! We've all been using 80 minute discs for a while now, and no one has gotten hurt. Seems contradictory to me to be so anal about the 80 minute disc thing yet cavalier about the sector boundaries...Oops I said i wouldn't comment on that!

:O)

Willy
09/10/2002 SBE Guy But can Jay's "Harpoon" kick Jay's Bertha after that long strange trip from Marin to NYC? Warning, do not burn in the 100% digital realm if your analog ears can detect sub-13 millisecond (i.e., 1 sector) delays. Thank the SB gods for Feurio's ability to round Jay's SSSB track markers.
09/10/2002 Who cares about the cd tracking regarding the placement of Bertha on d2. Why was the set 2 jam split up? According to the track timings above the Terrapin >>>>> UJB jam is under 74 minutes...
09/11/2002 Jay Serafin Look at the GDLive message board for the once and for all answers to the SBE "problem".

The "Mixdown ADAT" was taking the pre-mixed (2-track) show, and giving me FOUT REDUNDANT COPIES in case of a problem on the ADAT tape.

"100 digital realm" means that from the entry point into any of the three editing computers, to the both Harpoon-propriatary digital input sound card, to the digital mixer, to the Harpoon editing software, there are NO analog components involved in editing and processing this show.

If you say you've e-mailed me, but I don't answer, it's because I didn't get the e-mail! I answer ANY AND ALL non-spam e-mail questions posed to me. So, don't lie about things.

To save you the trouble of going and reading the GDLive post, here it is:

"I am going to explain this for the LAST TIME! (And I've done so in MANY private e-mails, despite people saying I do not reply to them).

Since these shows are sent to me for (usually) touch-up work, editing, noise reduction of all types (not just analog tape hiss), and other processes, my goal is to make the show sound as natural as possible, almost to the point of "being there". Most of the time, this is able to be accomplished. Sometimes, it is not.

Having said that, I work on each track/song indivudually. This allows me much more freedon and saves much more time than working on it as an "entire set" or "entire show". When you to and see a band play, they start EACH SONG on the first note. This is NOT POSSIBLE if I were to cut the songs, as you folks say, "on the boundary". Depending where the boundary actually is, the song can start too soon, or too late. If it begins too late, than you get the first part (note, word, whatever) chopped off. This is not how my releases are meant to be.

I work long and hard on these shows. I am more of an "archivist" in the work I do. Because of the way people burn their CD's, the software used, the burners used, and I could go on, some people get the "click" between tracks, some people do not. THIS IS NOT MY CONCERN! This may sound harsh and cruel, but people say "gimme, gimme, gimme", and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. This is NOT how it works here!

Each .shn file is a complete song/track onto itself. You can take ANY individual .shn file from ANY of the shows I've worked on, decompress it, and you will have the song/track play 0.04 to 0.06 seconds from the very first note of the song (this is what is also used in mastering houses world-wide... it is done because many CD players will not instantly produce output. They need a little "starting room", and this very small, and unable-to-be-heard "pre-start" (which is actually the very end of the last track/song) will give any CD player that chance to get up to speed, and to begin capturing the data from the audio CD people burn. So, if you only wanted to hear Me & My Uncle from one show I've released, if you download that .shn file, you're going to get it... not starting too soon or too late, but right on the money!

If people don't like having to deal with the SBE problem, here's my solution:
Take the show, uncompress the files, stitch the tracks together, take whatever your favorite program is, and let your choice of software break the show into the sections it wants to do. There it is... problem solved!

I release the shows, so that people can go and obtain a song just by uncompressing ONE FILE, not TWO files! If the original audio files were "cut on boundary", you'd need the preceeding file (if the song you wanted started "late", due to the SBE program), or you'd need the file after the one you wanted (if the SBE cut the song "too early" at it's end). So now, you have MORE WORK TO DO!

I am not forcing anyone to listen to shows made with this SBE program, that SBE program, etc. A commercial studio doesn't do this, and I don't either. The mastering houses have ways of taking care of this by means of million dollar hardware/software combinations when they make the pressing copy for future CD discs. You can take and re-do the shows I release in ANY FASHION YOU WANT!

Want a single MP3 song? You can take the .shn file, and make a pure MP3 of a song just by downloading the one file! Again, you don't need TWO files!

Finally, I find it very unusual that so many people have problem with my shows. My AUDIO MASTERS which I use for making dubs (audio files, not .shns) are made from the MASTER .SHN CD! I simply uncompress each file, use CDRWIN to burn the CD at 1x speed (which is the MOST RELIABLE WAY to get the proper burn depth, and without introducing jitter and worse, due to mild to severe vibrations when a disc spins at anything over 4x). The pits are burned to the correct depth, and can be read by high-speed CD-R drives, and ripped without problems. If one burns at anything over 4x, the pits may not be deep enough, and when the disc is ripped, diginoise can be introduced into the ripped track.

If people are too lazy to do a little work, that's not my problem. I'm giving people shows which can be used to make compilations, etc., with the least amount of work. And that is because of each file contain ONE SONG PER FILE. No "undercutting", no "start of the next song at the end of the track" being in there... it is just like taking your home/portable CD player, and choosing Track 04 (for example)... you certainly expect to only hear Track 04, not the first part cut off, or part of Track 05!

Use whatever program suits your needs to "fix the problem". But, the way I release my shows, there IS NO PROBLEM! You can take (just like I do) ANY show I've released, decompress the .shn files for (example) Disc 1 of 3, and then using good software (the 1x version of CDRWIN is FREE, by the way!), burn the disc. But people are looking for shortcuts, and ways to save their own precious time. Sorry, I don't work that way. The releases I put out there are made in a specific way, for a specific reason and purpose. If they're going to be vined, passed to others, whatever, that is NOT MY CONCERN! My concern is that the individual person who is personally downloading the show for their OWN enjoyment; or to have a show where (s)he can download and listen to a single song, or even multiple songs, using mkwACT, and their favorite player software (or burning their own personal CD-R).

That's it. Cut and dried. It's funny how many people bitch and moan about this SBE problem, yet so many others write and tell me how good the show is! Hey, I could just as easily put the .wav files up here on GDLive, and let you folks run wild with it! But no, people wanted them compressed to save time. So, you have to live with the limitations of technology, as do I!

Sorry if this post sounds bitchy, high-handed, egotistical, call it what you will. You wanted an answer, you got the answer! Maybe it's not the answer you wanted. It can take my anywhere from one week to one month to release a high-quality audio show, as I have to balance family responsibilities, my physical limitations of being unable to sit for more than 30-45 minutes, household chores, social responsibilities, and more. You folks can't take the hour or two to "make the show work like you want it to behave"? Sorry, but to me, people who don't want to do this appear greedy and/or lazy. Gee, what if don't use YOUR favorite program to cut the tracks? I guess I'm still "wrong", even if it's not right!

Or, we can simply end the whole problem right here and now: I just won't release any more of the 309 shows left to be worked on. I'll throw the media into the trash

I'm sitting here watching footage on every friggin' channel, watching my brother firefighters and paramedics die needlessly. Can't excape it today. But, popi got this going, and it deserves a reply. For those of you who say "Jay doesn't e-mail me back", I say you are a bold-faced liar! I answer EVERY piece of non-spam e-mail sent to me!!! People ask me questions, I give them answers. Always have done, always will do."
09/11/2002 _ "I'll throw the media into the trash I'm sitting here watching footage on every friggin' channel, watching my brother firefighters and paramedics die needlessly."

Well whatever weight your preceding comments had, they just lost it with this line. Instead of all the stuff you wrote, why not just say "If you complain about SHNS not being cut on sector boundaries, the terrorists have already won."? Would have saved everyone alot of readin'.
09/11/2002 Caleb Epstein C'mon Jay. Are you seriously saying that cutting tracks at a resolution of 1/75th of a second will actually prevent you from being able to index them at the start of songs? Thats a load of crap.
09/11/2002 ** Instead of bitching, why doesn't someone come up with a
better idea/way to distribute shows?

You people got BALLS to give this man headaches and this bullshit.

"When you want something done right, do it yourself!!"

If you dont like the cuts, DO NOT DOWNLOAD IT!
AND SHUT THE HELL UP.

Simple really.
Give the man a break, for real.
09/11/2002 Ghost i think the problem here is that jay doesn't seem to really understand what Sector Boundary Errors are, and how they can be avoided.

If Jay would take 2 seconds to run his files through shntool once he finished them they would have no errors (resulting in no clicks in between tracks), and there would be no problem.

There is no way in hell that fixing a sector boundary error will have any discernible impact on where the song starts. It's just too small of a shift.

For those of you who argue that we should just be happy he does this to begin with i say you are wrong. he is being stubborn about doing 2 seconds worth of work that would prevent us from having multiple md5s of a show in circulation.
09/11/2002 Dan Stephens I hope everyone here realizes that all of Jay's points are WAY off base.
09/11/2002 RMS I'll give Jay the benefit of the doubt here, but I don't understand how a "Chief Audio Engineer" can be so ignorant of a basic wave editing principle. You can check out http://www.mrichter.com/cdr/primer/blocks.htm for some more information about CD writing. Here's the short story: the redbook standard (which Jay clearly knows about and respects given his refusal to track shows for 80 minute discs) defines 75 blocks in each second of music. There are 588 samples per block... if you split tracks off of sector boundaries, the rest of the 588 sample block is padded with silence or other noise (depending on several variables). Thus, when burning live shows DAO there is either a break/pause between songs or a "click". To remedy this, you need to cut your tracks on sector boundaries. At most, this will mean moving the track markings 1/150th of a second. If that means you don't start your track at the "actual beginning of the song", I say "not true". And as the page I referenced points out, "Of course, that means your split may be moved. If you can hear the difference when it's shifted no more than 1/150th of a second, try analogue recording." But, as Jay has pointed out so vehemently, he's a 100% digital kind of guy. So Jay: cut your shows on sector boundaries! Why don't you? There is zero reason not to do the community this favor. Even if you really do just want one person to enjoy the show themselves, they'll get clicks or silence between tracks when they burn their "own CD-R copy". That will hamper their enjoyment of the show, which seems to be your goal.

Again, I don't have any beef with you. I think it's great that you and your "Marin County Source" contribute to the community. At the same time, members of a community share some basic rules of etiquette. In our community, one of those "rules" is that seeds should be cut on sector boundaries. Simple enough, right?

If you have any questions about ways to enable your code named "Harpoon" editing software to cut tracks on sector boundaries, feel free to post here and someone will help you out.
09/11/2002 jt james I agree with everyone - well, that is everyone who has managed to discuss issues while maintaining respect for others. SB errors are an indeed issue to be dealt with when seeding shows. Can you hear them initially? No. Can you hear them 10 generations down? Certainly. Seeding should be done with the utmost care. And certainly, ample respect should be shown to those that take the extensive time and effort (repeatedly). Props to Jay, and Jay, and Willy, the Hamiltons and many others (all of you) for making this a wonderful diversion...
09/11/2002 jb How about this? If Jay is really vehemtly opposed to sector boundaries, could we have an administrator (Diana or someone else) be the first person in the community here to receive Jay's shns, then have that person fix the boundaries before it is generally seeded to etree? That way Jay can be stubborn if he wants, but we can all get "fixed" copies.
09/11/2002 terrapinstation Jeez, Jay, with all that time you spent conjuring up and typing all that crap; you coulda fixed your last 5 or 6 seeds, negating all of this silliness. I'm of the opinion that if you won't do it right, don't do it at all.
I'm really lost as to why this is a big issue for you. You put all this time and effort into fixing these, to skip a 10 minute step at the end. And you know that this makes your shows non-Red Book compliant, yet you burn at 1x and won't use 80 min CDRs because they might be noncompliant?
This doesn't wash. If you don't wanna fix them send 'em to me before seeding and I'LL do it right.
09/11/2002 z Jay, why don't you just give your finished copies to one person, who will run them through .shn tool, then that person will have the responsibility to seed them here. That way the boundaries will be correct and you won't have to mess with doing it.
09/11/2002 Diana Hamilton For anyone reading this and still wondering about sector boundaries (perhaps a bit muddied in the back and forth above), I will rephrase what RMS has described, cribbed from etree.org's SeedingGuidelines:

Each track of a standard audio CD is composed of "frames" or "sectors" that are each 1/75 second long (also expressed as 2352 bytes or 588 samples long). If a track is properly cut on a multiple of 1/75 second, it is "sector aligned", or cut "along sector boundaries." When it is not properly cut, the last sector is like a ragged end, which CD burning software just fills in with silence. Listeners will hear a click or pop between tracks because of the music -> sub-second silence -> music transition. These sector boundary errors (SBEs) will sound louder or softer depending on the CD player. They may be very loud and annoying for some listeners, even if they are not noticeable on your own system.

To avoid SBEs, force your audio editing program to cut only on a multiple of 1/75 of a second (or only on frames, or only on a multiple of 2325 bytes or of 588 samples, however your program expresses it). Do any editing or "mastering" before doing your track splits. Never add fades or edits to .wav files after you track them. Doing so can push them out of alignment.

As for jb's comments about quick fixup of Jay's generous future seeds, it seems gdlive is generally the first stop for Jay's material, so perhaps folks could take up practical troubleshooting over on the gdlive messageboard, as Jay suggests. They have a good community of folks over there who care about what's on gdlive, if I recall correctly.

In the big picture, luckily SBE's are one of the lesser and most easily fixed "flaws" in seeding these days, thanks to shntool.

Jay, I'd email this but I don't have your address handy, even after all this talk. Thanks for the tunes, sir!

09/11/2002 Sean Cribbs I think most folks would agree that with regard to putting shn files into circulation, splitting tracks at sector boundaries is most important.
09/11/2002 hudson fowler Let's adress the one of the broader issues at hand regarding SSSB releases. I certainly don't agree with Mr. Serafin viewing himself as an "archivist." If he were, he'd likely be concerned with preservation of the lowest-generation, least-tinkered-with, dubs out there. That's really all I'm interested in and I think many others feel the same way. Not all of us listen through studio monitors in a sound-proof room. Additionally, most folks out there have access to a treble and bass knob on their tuner/amp that's more than adequate for adjusting the sound to fit their listening room and personal taste. Some of the cleanest, most elegantly engineered, high-fidelity audio components out there offer nothing more than those two adjustments. Why does he consistently release altered versions of shows when definitive, faithfull to the source, properly tracked versions already circulate? Why does he insist on poluting the pool and imposing his ear on the masses by running everything through massive ammounts of digital processing? Just so he can put his massive, self-serving tagline on a .txt file?
09/11/2002 shnaholic liar? hardly. i sent two emails over the last few months. they were never answered. the reason is unknown. ISP problem, email filters, server issues, internet fart, who knows. i am many things, but i am not a liar. bottom line here...... cut em on sector boundaries or let someone else do it after you remaster.
09/11/2002 not_finished "This is NOT POSSIBLE if I were to cut the songs, as you folks say, "on the boundary". Depending where the boundary actually is, the song can start too soon, or too late. If it begins too late, than you get the first part (note, word, whatever) chopped off. This is not how my releases are meant to be."

How can I give an ounce of respect to someone who makes a statement like this?
09/12/2002 shnaholic all that has to be done is use a tracking program that cuts on sector boundaries. we are not talking about making sure the track marker is exactly where the song begins. not everyone inserts track markers at exactly that spot. im just saying, if youre going to cut a huge wav file into smaller ones, use a program that meets etree seeding gudelines.
09/12/2002 sport Would any one make me copy of this,so i can compare it with mine.Which i believe to be Gans sourced,and danged near flawless.I was there.
09/12/2002 Joey Browning Thats me above.
09/12/2002 Diana Hamilton I've deleted a simple flame and will do so again if more appear. Thanks for keeping it a civil argument, folks!
09/12/2002 As Diane noted above, "Each track of a standard audio CD is composed of "frames" or "sectors" that are each 1/75 second long." By my calculations, Captain, one should not have difficulty beginning a track at a sector boundary without chopping off the beginning of a song.
09/12/2002 mule man All I know is my copy sounds GREAT, regardless of where it came from. A lot of y'all need to quit you damn whining and ENJOY THE MUSIC!
09/12/2002 z when I cut tracks, I usually start the song about 2 seconds before the first note - this way when you skip to it, you have a second or two to "ease in" before the song wallops you (like a good passenger has been known to do)

also, lets not split up china>riders and scarlet>fires... (flame suit on)
09/12/2002 PainoMan This is the same source tape as was used for the Clugston seed. They both have identical fluctuations at the beginning of Estimated Prophet caused by a reel flip.

In comparison, this one does have a bit more punch to it.

The interesting part about this seed is the editing done to cover the reel flips in Estimated Prophet and Around And Around.

The edit in Around is fairly basic simply omits any of the missing music that is included in the Clugston AUD patch. It is not completely smooth, but it isn't glaring either. This edit is not mentioned in the text file.

The edit in Estimated however, took a little more work. In the text file, it is mentioned that there was cross-fading done to smooth over the reel flip. What is not mentioned is that a section of the second chorus was used to cover the reel flip during the first chorus.
09/12/2002 PainoMan And this is a very good edit. You might never notice it unless you compare it with the Clugston AUD patch and catch the lyrical differences.
09/12/2002 PainoMan When I say it's a very good edit, don't get the wrong idea. I'm certainly not condoning this method of masking a reel flip. This is actually much worse to me than the sector boundary errors. I was going to re-seed this, seemless and re-tracked, with the SBEs taken care of, but after finding this bit of chicanery I'm not going to waste my time.
09/12/2002 Joe Samaritano Deadhead & Piano Man:

Thanks for your comments regarding the reel splices in Estimated & Around. I knew the Gans version had splices from other 5/77 shows and these splices on the SSSB source seem to be the same. So, either the exact same edit was performed as the Gans seed *or* this is the Gans seed run through Jays processing equipment. No mention in the info file about any of this except it's the master from the "Marin County Source."
09/12/2002 barton hall even if Serafin wants to start his tracks 0.04 seconds in, a sector is only 0.013 seconds, so even if they are fixed, the track will still start where he wants it to.
as far as working on each song separately, that is silly.
he says he wants to duplicate the concert experience, and that any track downloaded should just be that song, but just as people don't go to a concert and only stay for one song, people don't just download one song from a shn set. they download the whole concert! just as one song does not make a concert, one track does not make a shn set, and if all the pieces of the set don't fit together seamlessly, then no one is going to enjoy listening to the concert. so when you say it's not your problem, it is, because no one is enjoying your shn sets and will likely not bother with them unless you do us all a favor and spend 10 minutes to fix your tracks on sector boundaries, whether you work on them one at a time or not.
you would think the chief recording engineer of a studio could grasp such a simple concept.
btw, these comments are now longer than the average serafin txt file.
09/12/2002 SBE Guy The sad thing is that the chief audio/video engineer at SSSB doesn't appear to understand what a sector boundary error really is. The following is an unedited quote excerpt from one of his verbose replies 6 months ago justifying SBEs in his seeds:

> The bottom line is that my way of making the
> recordings of the restored shows is correct. It's
> the .shn program itself that is making the errors
> come to the surface.

Obviously, this is a 100% incorrect statement. He goes on to further validate his lack of understanding.

> one should never use more processes than is
> necessary. .SHN is a process, and that's what's
> causing all the fuss. If files were simply saved
> as .wav or .cda files, there would be no problems.
09/12/2002 Matt Vernon Jay, are any of the 309 shows you have left (I presume from your "Deep Throat" Marin County source) by chance soundboards from the March 1972 Academy of Music run that don't already circulate? 3/28/72 would be extra cool and I'm not that picky about sector boundary errors:)
09/12/2002 twatts SBE = bad... but that has been established...

But another thing strikes me: Why is the second set split during a segue between Eyes>NFA??? Terrapin thru to e: is only 73:20 (redbook)... Wouldn't it be better to have this jam uncut on its own 3rd disc, leaving the 2nd disc as just a 30 min. disc???

Jay, you can justify your SBE all day - but there is no excuse for cutting a segue onto 2 discs...

T
09/12/2002 JimmyPhan420 I completely respect all of the time that Jay spends professionally editing and re-mastering his seeds. His stuff always sounds great! Jay, Thank You for all the time you spend!!! I mean that sincerely.

I just don?t understand why you won?t, after all the time spent, ensure the tracks are split on proper sector boundaries as per Etree seeding standards. I just don?t get the stubbornness, nor do I understand your reasoning behind your stance.
09/12/2002 just getting started What is the big deal about editing in 24 bits at 96khz anyway? I would think that all editing should be done in as high as a resolution as possible, and that would be at a minimum of 32 bit using an 8 bit mantissa at 4 times the original sample rate. Or even 64 bit floating point (IEEE float scheme)? Word length being the main key to sound quality, is it not?
The amount of doctoring one can do to a file digitally is limited only by ones patience and equipment. I have been playing around a bit with Sound Forge 6.0 and I am learning a little about what you are all talking about here as far as re-mastering the two tracks go. I found that it was to my benefit sonically to edit at the highest rates possible to preserve the sound quality at say 16 bits, 44,100hz. The editing work done at that level is nearly sonically invisible at the lower resolutions, at least to the average listener.
That said, however, I must take exception to the post by Hudson Fowler ??Additionally, most folks out there have access to a treble and bass knob on their tuner/amp that's more than adequate for adjusting the sound to fit their listening room and personal taste. Some of the cleanest, most elegantly engineered, high-fidelity audio components out there offer nothing more than those two adjustments??. The best of preamps that I have auditioned have had NO knobs whatsoever and needed none.
The processing one can do is amazing as far as presentation goes. That muddy flat sound that so many shows we have in circulation feature is in no way the music was intended to be ?preserved? by the artists that made the music. So what Jay is doing is admirable to a point. But when one threatens to destroy the media he professes to want to preserve and archive for the times to come I start to wonder a bit. And to then miss the last step in sending it out to all of us peons really makes me wonder.
And Jay, I have waited ever so patiently for a response to my email that I sent over a month ago, so maybe there is something going on with the way you have the mail filters set. And the letter I sent was in response to one you sent to me privately; in response to a question I posed on GDLive. Don?t worry about it all now; I have already gone beyond all the questions I posed in that missive.
I do have a question that I have not been able to answer definitely yet and I pose to all digital audio pros: when up scaling the wav file from 16 bit /44.1khz, is it proper to change bit depth first and then resample? What about going back down? I seem to get the best results by bit depth and then re-sampling going up and down. Any comments or theory as to which is preferable is highly appreciated. Thanks to any input here.
09/12/2002 bonovoxx I am really upset about the amount of garbage everyone is giving Jay about this and his other releases. Of all the critics and monday morning quarterbacks who posted to this thread, how many of you have seeded a show? Jay has seeded a tremendous number of shows, and puts a lot of time and effort in to getting the seeds out. I don't think we should be demeaning him because there are sector boundry issues wit the seeds. If these errors are so easy to fix, why don't one of you rocket scientists take the time and do it instead of posting negative e-mails..
09/12/2002 Tim Wiley WOW ! What a bunch of stuff here. Well here is what I have to add.

I say we appoint someone to use the shntool to fix all the SBE's seeds from seeders that refuse to use the shntool. Yes it is a very easy step! It takes about 2 minutes to do. So why is it a hassle for the seeder(s) to do this? I am not put Jay down or anyone here for that matter. I just am making a suggestiuon that if the seed has SBE from a pitucular seeder that refuses to take the extra steps. We should appoint someone to fix the SBE's and re-seed before the pool gets totally pissed on. Just my 2 cents. No offense to anyone here.

Sincerly,
T. Wiley
09/12/2002 Mike At this point I think Jay has heard and understands your opinions and concerns. Going forward, he will decide what he wants to do with his seeds. There is really no need to continue negativity.

GDLive is an open archive and we will post your shows as well. If you feel strongly about this, upload or send your seed to us and evangelize its presence to the community.

~Mike
09/13/2002 jb You know, the most ironic thing about this whole debate is the fact that Jay is getting all of this (at times personal) criticism because he does his job WELL. If his work didn't add significant value to a show, no one would care if his discs aren't cut on sector boundaries, they would just find another seed that is.
09/13/2002 Donna I would just be happy if Sunrise was cut on sector boundaries. That made the show. Doh ! You guys is crazy !
09/13/2002 Tim Wiley JB,
That is not the case for me! Look at my list try to find a SSSB show on it! I don't get them even if they are great due to the SBE'S!!! I have no time to fix them after I get them due to the many groups and projects I am involed with. YOU might want them I DON'T!

T. Wiley
09/13/2002 Scott Well I'll tell you one thing, the 10-9-89 Serafin kicks the crap out of the old seed regardless of SBE's. Good WorkSerafin.
09/13/2002 wasn't this show really the may 27/77 early show?
09/13/2002 drgseeds Indeed, Jay should be commended for all of his hard work in the production and distribution of his seeds but,it's my belief that Jay?s seeds have no place on etree. Not because they aren?t cut on sector boundaries, but because they are produced. Meaning digitally altered just read his boilerplate he runs noise reduction and graphic equalization on virtually every seed. I may be opening up a new can of worms and please correct me if I?m wrong. It is my impression that etree frowns on doing NR and GE on seeds. I thought our goal was to archive and distribute the most complete and nearest to the source recordings of the music we all love so much. Virtually every Tom Dick and Harry has the ability and right to digitally alter recordings, but we all have different tastes in the way we like shows to sound. If everyone seeded his or her altered version of a show etree would soon become a quagmire. That?s not to say if Jay actually came up with something that wasn?t already widely held or more complete than existing etree seeds it shouldn?t be admitted it should. His top secret Marin County source doesn?t seem so great to me. If it was he would be seeding the Betty Boards from the Academy shows or a crispy boards from any shows which are hoarded by a select few. Let?s shift our focus from Jay to the people who are the hearts and souls of our community for example Scott, Tim, Willy and all the other hard working etree seeders without their diligence we would have nothing to share.. They work their asses off to dig up the best quality recordings and in many cases patch with other sources these shows but, they don?t force us to listen to music the way they like it to sound. I feel there are lot?s of places for guys like the two Jay?s (Serafin & Ashley) to seed their shows. A great example being gdlive which is an exceptional forum. We etree folks no what we like we don?t need 10 page text documents filled with opinions of shows, self promotion and pontification. You don?t see the seeders mentioned above telling us any of that crap.
09/13/2002 jb As for the post-production, I disagree. Yes, for historical purposes, the most unaltered, closest to the source recording should be archived, but if someone has the ability to make a seed sound significantly better, then it shoudl be available here as well. Not all of us have the ability to re-master CDs, especially with the kind of equipment that Jay has at his disposal. I agree that we can't get bogged down with 20 different people's re-equalization of the same seed, but I think there is room for more than one seed to be available - one that is "unaltered" and one or two that are remastered by people with professional-caliber equipment for those who don't have the ability to do that kind of work themselves.
09/13/2002 RMS Couple things to add:

1) I think this discussion should be taken off of this seed and added to the wiki.etree.org site. While the back-and-forth regarding sector boundaries does apply to this seed, it is much more generally applicable (there are many SSSB seeds and many non-SSSB seeds with SBEs) and would be better served on a page dedicated to seeding guidelines/sector boundaries. If that can occur, maybe we can replace this long discussion with a single comment linking to the wiki page. I would go ahead and add the comments myself (the beauty of wiki), but I would like to get a consensus first and maybe have Diana or someone more "qualified" take care of the changes. Thoughts?

2) The sector boundary issue itself is becoming silly. Jay is claiming that people will criticize him for using the wrong software to cut his wave files on sector boundaries? That's ludicrous. It's not a question of how well a seed's tracks are cut... it's a cut-and-dry, yes-or-no issue: is this seed cut on sector boundaries? It either is or it isn't... no questions asked. The Redbook standards define this as a requirement in order for something to be considered a CD. Peter Braverman, whose opinion I deeply respect, posted just this explanation on the GD Live message board. Like he said, maybe the people defining the seeding standards or the standards for what is and is not a "CD" know something he doesn't. And even though Jay is obviously an expert sound technician capable of leveraging his fancy toys to do post-production work on live recordings, he is simply *wrong* in this case. Accepting his clearly incorrect opinion as to why he must not "give in" to the demands of the community is a poor precedent to follow. There's really nothing we can do about it, but those who post that "it's all about the music" and "jay gives us the music, stop bothering him" are not helping to maintain the integrity of our archives. And it's not an issue of "etree vs. everyone else"... it's a matter of high quality versus poor quality, doing the job right versus doing the job wrong. The explanations cannot be given any more clearly: you move the track markers a maximum of 1/150th of a second and you satisfy everyone. *No one* will complain about a seed that *is* cut on sector boundaries. If most others can adhere to this community norm, why must we defend Jay for not doing so? It really does only take a few minutes and it really is something important... of all people, I would think Jay could understand this. And besides, adding a note about cutting tracks on sector boundaries could really beef up those text files, eh Jay? :)
09/13/2002 Diana Hamilton RMS, anyone can make a page at wiki.etree.org, so if you would like to paste and/or condense and/or generalize what has been said here into the wiki, feel free to do so. Wiki pages are also fully editable by any other visitor. For an even wider perspective (ie, more opinions), perhaps folks can visit the gdlive.com messageboard thread that people have been mentioning here but no one has pointed to. I believe the thread may be here. Additional discussions have been taking place in other mailing lists.

Meanwhile, Willy and I feel that the present discussion does serve a purpose being here, so it will remain.

However, I believe that all the more general issues and opinions pertaining to this and similar seeds have been covered well enough on this page. At this point, I would like to request that additional comments here stick only to specific, additional observations about this shn set that have not already been covered (good example, Painoman's notes above on splice patching). Thanks!

09/13/2002 RMS Thanks, Diana. I added some preliminary notes to the http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=SeedingGuidelines page. I would appreciate it if others could review the changes and contribute more of their own!
09/13/2002 Diana Hamilton Er, the discussion was way, way beyond the scope of the SeedingGuidelines page and deserved its own page. Now see/edit SectorBoundaryDiscussion instead.
06/23/2003 Aaron Rumack If this was processed at 24 bit/96 kHz, and my sound card is compartible for that, then why does the file show as 16/44.1?
02/23/2004 Jay Serafin The reason they show up as 44.1/16 is so that they can be put onto a CD! That's the standard for that type of media.

When DVD media becomes more affordable, the shows I receive (and recorded at the higher bit/sampling rates) will not have to be down-converted, since the DVD will easily handle 32-bit and 196 kHz rates.

As far as the SBE issue, no one should have reason to complain after 3/04, as all shows which will be posted at GDLive have been "fixed" using ShnTool.

As far as the one person's comment that "every show has noise reduction, etc. performed on them" (that's not the exact quote, but it's close enough), not every show has NR or other processing performed on them. And EQ is RARELY USED HERE WHEN WORKING ON SHOWS! Maybe 1 show out of every 30 has several 20-40 Hz-wide parametric EQ curves performed on them, and then it is no more than +/- 2.0 dB !!! That is usually when a show is left with the Dolby A or B encoding left turned on. I have the chart which shows what the encoding curve is for Dolby A, B, C, H, and S (the latter 2 are used in Studio work).

If I DO have to use EQ, I make a note of it in my text file. For the show lineage/comments, that part at the end which says "... performed in the digital realm" does NOT state that those processes WERE performed, but only IF they were performed, they were done without using outboard equipment.
03/08/2004 "As far as the SBE issue, no one should have reason to complain after 3/04, as all shows which will be posted at GDLive have been "fixed" using ShnTool."

thanks jay for comforming to common sense.
08/13/2006 btet Um... Jay? Just wanted to say thanks. While I don't think it'd do your seeds any harm to be cut on sector boundaries, I've downloaded a lot of your seeds off of GD Live and wouldn't have the shows to complain about in the first place. The rest of you - if running shntool is such an easy thing to do, why aren't you doing it now instead of writing screeds against Jay? Which takes more of your time?
08/13/2006 btet Sorry, hadn't read to the bottom of the comments before posting mine. Thanks again for your efforts, Jay.
02/12/2007 sshaw13 One thing I don't think has been noted here is that although you can easily burn this onto 3x80-min CDRs with more logical disc-splits (Bertha / S&D; Big River / Terrapin) unfortunately THERE ARE FADES both in and out at the original disc-splits.

Also, in case you're interested, here's the md5 for the SBE-fixed fileset (shntool defaults - backward shift, padding at end):

eb05d1a6306d5f6cbdd0f83e704cfde3 *gd77-05-26d1t01-fixed.shn
5e75da8b1bf88c5a54efc34d4b2ac4fd *gd77-05-26d1t02-fixed.shn
f43e761314b4c5b8ca1067cd4be42d28 *gd77-05-26d1t03-fixed.shn
414ce66958e5c502c639ef658f24d790 *gd77-05-26d1t04-fixed.shn
5640be3a16736eee44703f01f7027ce2 *gd77-05-26d1t05-fixed.shn
b6a1c5ee17eec682ea04300635b1545a *gd77-05-26d1t06-fixed.shn
2e85abbdb79cdf2f826a44d1a3ad2e96 *gd77-05-26d1t07-fixed.shn
e5339a5b78ae7ec9e38553271938fb83 *gd77-05-26d1t08-fixed.shn
5659176d63ff10449da31f07e756538a *gd77-05-26d1t09-fixed.shn
01367c20ebe51c1379542fc7412f4c85 *gd77-05-26d1t10-fixed.shn
f79807888984ea2ff35df14bc14d4ec4 *gd77-05-26d2t01-fixed.shn
c21d5b45368f42ffd79b292444f61f33 *gd77-05-26d2t02-fixed.shn
f38648b05877ee42e734dc3deff71249 *gd77-05-26d2t03-fixed.shn
0f8a4d851f1b5dadf319baacb131608c *gd77-05-26d2t04-fixed.shn
eceb3516de70da98664ff86aafbfa6f1 *gd77-05-26d2t05-fixed.shn
0ca508831138f34caf60d5bab1a3df64 *gd77-05-26d2t06-fixed.shn
3c323dc52e130cbdddefcc5b3739ebb8 *gd77-05-26d2t07-fixed.shn
f059bc657661b84e5c61c77e7f862808 *gd77-05-26d3t01-fixed.shn
eddd67ad1d6360bd38193d589519beaa *gd77-05-26d3t02-fixed.shn
04eb4766092a12da9fd5c4e6e75ed825 *gd77-05-26d3t03-fixed.shn
e01710edefbd332291d90af977ea89fb *gd77-05-26d3t04-fixed.shn
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